Category: Interviews

Today we’re talking with author Phil Hine, who has been an integral part of the occult community for over 45 years. Here we discuss the evolution of magical communities, the time before the internet, and what influences his practice.

1. What first drew you to the study and practice of magic?

I thought the occult was rubbish until I was about 16. One day, I was in the school library, idly glancing through a bound edition of Man, Myth & Magic magazine – looking of pictures of nude witches. I came across a photo of a painting by Austin Osman Spare. I’d been reading Jung – probably Man & His Symbols – and something about the Spare portrait seemed to resonate with that (can’t remember exactly what it was) and that got me interested. I went to the local library and read anything I could get my hands on. There wasn’t a great choice – Theosophy, Spiritualism, Dennis Wheatley. Eventually I got my hands on David Conway’s classic “Magic: An Occult Primer” and everything sort of bobbled along from that point. If you want to know more, there’s some autobiographical essays in Hine’s Varieties.

2. What made chaos magic different from other schools and systems you had learned about?

When I first came across chaos magic in the late 70s it wasn’t really either a school or a system – really more of a bunch of vague ideas that were being largely discussed in ‘zines and amongst small groups of people. There weren’t many books either – three or four at the most, all published by small presses. One of the first things that I came across was a cassette tape of a ritual called “the chaochamber”. I guess you could call it a pathworking of sorts, but instead of the standard astral temple set up, you floated in the aethyr in a kind of steampunk vehicle. I thought this was great – really creative. That’s what attracted me to chaos magic – the permission to pull in ideas and themes from outside what then passed for “traditional” occultism, which was rather conservative to say the least. Just to give you an idea what it was like, I was doing a correspondence course in elementary magical practice (by post – no internet in 1980!) and the tutors told me off for spelling magic with a “k” and for experimenting with sigils.

3. How has your study of Tantra influenced your magical practice?

That’s an interesting question. I first became interested in Tantra in the early 80s, and since the late 90s all I’ve done is tantric practice – mostly a ‘light’ form of Srividya. Not only has that shaped my practice and understanding of magic significantly, but it’s also influenced some of my side interests. For example, a few years ago, I became interested in classical Indian literary and poetic theory. I decided I needed a better understanding of poetic and literary metaphors in order to better understand the tantric literature I was using in my practice such as the dhyanas – the meditative scenes that are a core component of the practice. It also spurred my interest in history, as I wanted to find out where all the misconceptions about tantra being entirely about sex arose – so I started looking into the historical processes that gave rise to those misconceptions. Frequently I find myself zooming off on a new trajectory just by asking simple questions. What are classical Indian ideas of beauty? How did 14th-century tantric teachers think of how the imaginative faculty worked? It’s too easy to approach tantra from the perspective of contemporary ‘western’ assumptions about standards of beauty or the imagination – I wanted to know what they had to say, and often turned up surprises or ideas vastly different to what I was used to.

4. Having been around to witness so much evolution in magical/occult communities and practices, what have been some of the biggest changes?

The internet, without a doubt. The internet has changed everything.

Also, people nowadays seem less likely to put up with the blantant racism, misogyny, and homophobia that’s present in a lot of “classical” occult books of the twentieth century. People are calling it out, and that’s a good thing, in my view.

5. How has life in northern England influenced your work?

I lived in Yorkshire between 1984-1991, although I spent three years there earlier, between 1978-81. For the most part, I was really poor, living below the poverty line during a period of mass unemployment. Still, I managed to keep busy, being an activist for networks like PaganLink and HOBLink (a LGBT pagan network), co-editing with Rodney Orpheus a monthly pagan zine, going to and organising conferences, and generally doing a lot of magic for myself and others – and continually writing about it. I self-published some small books and produced books for others. That early experience in publishing was foundational in my later professional life – working first in book publishing at Psychic Press, then spending 15 years producing magazines for a business-to-business Aviation publisher. In 2019 I set up my own press imprint – Twisted Trunk, and have released two books so far by Mike Magee – translations and commentaries on rare tantric texts. More about them at: https://enfolding.org/books/

6. Do you feel like there are fundamental differences between American and British magicians?

I wouldn’t say so. Some of my best friends are American magicians. Despite divergent cultural backgrounds and experiences we don’t seem to have a problem communicating.

7. What advice would you give someone just starting to explore magic?

1. Question everything you read.
2. Don’t take it too seriously – keep a sense of perspective.
3. If in doubt, try it out.

8. Recently your book “Hine’s Varieties: Chaos & Beyond” was released. What can readers find in this latest release?

“Hine’s Varieties” (2019) is a collection of essays from different points of my life. Since I’d been writing on occult matters for over 40 years, I thought I could get away with a “collected essays” book. But I wanted to do more than just shove a bunch of essays together. The book is divided into thematic sections: Chaos, Paganisms, Practice, Tantra, Sexualities, Histories, Fiction. For each section I’ve opened with some autobiographical reflections, and chosen essays that I hope, reflect how my ideas have progressed over time. I’ve tried also to provide context for each piece, why I wrote it, what had been going on in my life at the time – that sort of thing. The essays range from things written for small pagan ‘zines in the 1980s to very recent blog posts and anthology essays.

(Editors Note: You can find Hine’s Varieties here.)

9. What’s next? Do you have any upcoming projects our readers should know about?

I have a new book – “Queering Occultures” – that will be out in a few weeks time from Original Falcon Press. It’s a collection of essays exploring different facets of what it means to “queer” occult practices and concepts. It should be available early February, if not before. Also in progress is Delinquent Elementals by Rodney Orpheus and myself. It’s a collection of essays, news stories and humour from Pagan News – a monthly ‘zine Rodney & I created in the late 80s. That should be out later in the year from Strange Attractor Press. Aside from that, I hope to be doing more lectures this year, and there may well be some further releases from my own Twisted Trunk small press.

10. Parting shot! Ask us at The Magical Buffet any one question.

What’s the weirdest answer you’ve ever had from an interviewee?

Actually, I have a whole interview that was weird. I once interviewed author Deborah Blake’s cat, Magic. I mainly did it because I thought it would be cute, and it was. Here’s the interview.

About Phil Hine:
Phil Hine has been a practising Occultist for over forty-five years, with a career spanning Wicca, Ritual Magic, Chaos Magic and nondual Tantra. Together with Rodney Orpheus he co-created and edited the UK’s first monthly Pagan magazine, Pagan News (1988-92). He is a former initiate of the Illuminates of Thanateros, The Esoteric Order of Dagon, and the Arcane & Mystical Order of the Knights of Shamballa (AMOOKOS). He was an activist in Pagan networks in the 1980s such as PaganLink and HOBLink – the UK’s first network for LGBTQ occult practitioners. He lives in London, England.

His books include: Condensed Chaos, Prime Chaos, The Pseudonomicon, and Hine’s Varieties: Chaos & Beyond. He has also self-published lectures on the history of Chakras and Possession in early Tantric literature. In 2019 he founded Twisted Trunk, a small press specializing in publishing translations of rare Tantric texts.

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Today we’re talking with Tobias Churton, an authority on Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Freemasonry, and Rosicrucianism, and author of the book “Aleister Crowley in England: The Return of the Great Beast.”

1. I realize it’s hard to summarize, but for my readers who may not be familiar with him, who is Aleister Crowley?

Christened Edward Alexander Crowley, Aleister (his pen-name) Crowley was born in 1875 in Leamington Spa, Warwickshire, England, the son of a self-financing Plymouth Brethren Christian preacher whose family had made a fortune in brewing. An only child, Crowley was brought up with little contact with non-Brethren families and encouraged to see the Bible as having the literal truth about everything. After his father’s death, aged 11, he reacted against his mother and uncle’s indoctrination and started to see a pleasant life beyond strict doctrine. He was educated at numerous schools and by private tutors until recommended for Cambridge University’s Trinity College by the Prime Minister, Lord Salisbury. He studied modern languages, literature and chemistry with a view to becoming a diplomat. While a student he distinguished himself as a daring, original mountaineer in the UK and the Alps and devoted his spare time when not climbing to poetry, inspired by Swinburne and Browning. When he came into his fortune he didn’t care to complete his final examinations, decided there was no lasting fame in diplomatic service, and struck out on a personal career in Magick, poetry and mountaineering. He was trained as a ceremonial magician in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, founded for men and women by British Freemasons. When the Order split apart in 1900 he began his world travels, crossing to America, thence to Hawaii, Japan, China and Ceylon where he studied raj yoga with his friend Allan Bennett, who would go on to lead the first Buddhist sangha to Great Britain. Crowley joined his friend Oscar Eckenstein on the first attempt on K2 in the Karakorams in 1902, then went to Cairo and Paris where he involved himself with the Montparnasse artistic scene, being friendly with painter Gerald Kelly, whose sister Rose, Crowley married as a ruse to get her out of an unwanted liaison in 1903. They fell in love. During their honeymoon in 1904, Rose told him in Cairo that “they” were waiting for him. “They” appeared to be the “Secret Chiefs” of the Order which Crowley had joined. Following Rose’s instructions, he invoked the god Horus in rented rooms in Cairo and over three days took down by direct voice dictation what came to be called The Book of the Law, a message from a kind of angel called “Aiwas” outlining that a new Aeon had come about with a distinctly Nietzschean quality to it; Crowley was its prophet. Crowley initially ignored the text but as time went on he attributed his gradually failing fortunes to his ignoring it. By 1909 he was dedicated to leading a new Order, the Astrum Argentinum, into the new Aeon, which set him against numerous prevailing doctrines of the times. What happened after that time until his death in Hastings in 1947, you can read about in the six volumes of Churton’s biography of Crowley.

2. “Aleister Crowley in England: The Return of the Great Beast” is your fifth book detailing a period of Crowley’s life. What made you to decide to focus on Crowley’s life as a topic?

I felt a great injustice had been done to Crowley and that his achievements and insights deserved an accurate telling without prejudice and based solely on the surviving records, of which there are a great deal. I gained access to his private papers, diaries and letters and have researched the subject over forty years.

3. I’m always so conflicted when considering Crowley. Is he an eccentric iconoclast, sensitive scholar, entitled snob, all of the above?

I think he was all of the above. He had snobbish tendencies but he never turned people away from himself on account of their background. He considered himself a chivalrous aristocrat, insofar as the word “aristocrat” implies government by “the best.” He had a passion for justice, and was a strong advocate of the rights of the individual, male or female to pursue their true goals in life without restriction.

4. I was surprised to learn that Crowley was using medically prescribed heroin for an assortment of health issues later in life. How far back does that use go and how much, if at all, you feel it affected his behavior?

Crowley was prescribed heroin for bronchitis and asthma in 1919 by his family doctor, Dr Harold Batty Shaw of Harley Street, London, a distinguished surgeon. It was the only medicine that brought temporary relief from a condition which got worse during the 1920s, several times nearly resulting in death. When in Germany in 1931-32 he found a German medication which he used instead but could not obtain it after returning to England in May 1932. His heroin was provided by doctor’s prescription. The use of the drug might have made him rather verbose in his writing at certain times, and emphasised occasionally the dreamy and mystical tendency to be out of this world, but his intellect was sharp, and his humour was rich, until the end. Physically he suffered badly during World War Two, on account of nerves over German bombing and concern for others and his mission in life, and he never recovered the great strength he enjoyed until the end of World War One.

5. You’re based out of England, and I’m curious if you notice a difference in the perception of Crowley between England and the United States?

I don’t see a great deal of difference. Perception of Crowley very much depends on education and personal experience. All kinds of “seekers” have some response to Crowley, and it often depends on which bodies of commitment any individual favours. Theosophists, for example, are often deeply suspicious of Crowley, whereas Freemasons vary one way or the other. Some only see the public image, which is ludicrous and deliberately off-putting. There are fanatically minded zealots who seems to be obsessed by their own propaganda, and the US seems to have more than its fair share of such cases, but fanaticism is to be found in most places where people have access to a little knowledge, but little inclination to study subjects in depth and with objectivity. The internet has been a great thing but also a dangerous thing because all information is presented on the same plane. People want to know what’s “really” happening in the world, but don’t want to wait long for an answer, and settle for sketches which are often no more than cartoons or mere graffiti. Obviously, it’s difficult for many Americans to understand the subtle nuances that go into an Edwardian Englishman’s outlook on the world (and vice versa), but Crowley had a universal mind and adored travel and meeting new phases of sensitivity and experience of things. He did not think much of the American dollar-oriented system as a system, but he liked Americans personally very much and would have liked to have spent the rest of his life in the States after he’d been back in England for eight years! He lived in the U.S. exclusively from the end of 1914 to the end of 1919: five long and eventful years. His American followers have been particularly devoted. His anti-Christian stance (which is not at all it seems to be) obviously alienates people who feel threatened by trenchant criticism of some traditional Christian doctrines (such as atonement by blood sacrifice).

6. I loved to learn that Crowley was quite the foodie, and enjoyed seeing his recipes in “Aleister Crowley in England.” Any chance of a Crowley cookbook in future?

I wanted to do that some years back but the copyright holder said the task had been given to someone else years ago – but they hadn’t done it. I should say the recipes in the book could all be created from the information in my book. But you’re right. I could have made it a real joy, I think.

7. You’re the founder of “Freemasonry Today” magazine. I think the general population considers Freemasons a secretive organization, so how did the magazine come about?

I heard the United Grand Lodge of England planned a magazine for public availability to help the public see what Freemasonry really was, and to help Freemasons understand their own Masonry better. So I wrote to the people who hoped to launch it, and was offered the job, which I was happy to do, as it was about finding the truth and telling it clearly.

8. Your work is academic, thoughtful, and accessible, yet you’re so prolific. Can you offer any insights into your research and writing process?

There’s no substitute for work. One thing is that after working in TV as a researcher, writer and director for about ten years in the 1980s, I had a terribly hard time in the 90s until 1997 – funnily enough the bad times followed after my biggest success, the book and TV series GNOSTICS – and I felt I had “lost” vital years where I wanted desperately to create and move forwards with new projects. I feared I would never regain my foothold on the mountain again, that my life was ruined. After 2000, an opening was made in the brick wall of resistance, and I started writing again, having got into the habit of writing and editing through the magazine Freemasonry Today which taught me new disciplines. I’ve felt that I had to make up for those awful lost years, so I do not procrastinate, and am grateful for every single new day where I know I can still write and think and create. My work-output would frighten many people, but I feel it is consistent with the very great driving force that has been in me since I was a child. I have long felt this world is in such a state that personally speaking, my only proper response is to give it every thing I possibly can in terms of the very best things that I can conceive of, and discover, and that I am hopefully and gratefully gifted and qualified to accomplish. The question is always there: how do we get out of the kind of fixed thinking that makes humankind keep repeating its mistakes and not learning from them, and growing up? This means deep, unremitting research and deep thought, and the energy to create. I work strict, long hours and like to finish the day with a trip to the pub and a chat with whoever enjoys good conversation and a joke. Then I like to eat a hearty dinner with a glass of wine, and see a good, classic movie – and hope my dreams match those of an older Hollywood for entertainment value!

9. What’s next? Do you have any upcoming projects that my readers should be aware of?

I have just completed a new book called THE ORIGINS OF ALCHEMY. I have shared that fascination others have felt for this mysterious subject and wanted to get to the true bottom of it, and unravel the Gordian knot of confusion and obfuscation on the subject. I think this book will be the kind of experience I should like to have been presented with 40 years ago! It would have saved myself and others an awful lot of trouble! Next I intend to write an historical novel, and hopefully get my TV drama series I’ve written made for TV or film. It’s set in Paris in the 1880s and 1990s and is poetic, sexy and magical. It would also be nice if I could find a proper outlet for my music. I wrote my first orchestral tone-poem last year (52 minutes) as well as a new album of songs and instrumental works. I need several more lifetimes to feel I’ve given all I wish to give. And then, I expect I’d want to do more still. If my “cup runneth over” it’s because I haven’t yet been given a large enough cup!

10. Parting shot! Ask us at The Magical Buffet any one question.

What do you think England has to offer the world these days?

Magically speaking, I feel England will always have something to offer. So many magical traditions have roots in the country that it will be kind of an eternal touchstone for magical studies. Also, England’s delicious curry and chips have yet to make their mark in America, so I have that to look forward to.

About Tobias Churton:
Tobias Churton is an authority on Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Freemasonry, and Rosicrucianism. Appointed Honorary Fellow of Exeter University in 2005, he holds a master’s degree in Theology from Brasenose College, Oxford, and is the author of many books, including three previous books on Aleister Crowley—”Aleister Crowley in America”, “Aleister Crowley in India”, and “Aleister Crowley: The Beast in Berlin”. He lives in the heart of England. You can find him at https://tobiaschurton.com/

You can learn more about “Aleiter Crowley in England” here.

Did you like the interview? Want to read “Aleister Crowley in England?” Good news! Inner Traditions was kind enough to send me an extra copy to give away to one of my readers! As per usual, I’ll be letting Rafflecopter do the work. The giveaway runs from 05/09/22 until 11:59pm eastern 05/13/22. The giveaway is open to people 18 year of age and older and reside in the United States. Good luck!

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Author and filmmaker Michael William West wrote, “Sex Magicians: The Lives and Spiritual Practices of Paschal Beverly Randolph, Aleister Crowley, Jack Parsons, Marjorie Cameron, Anton LaVey, and Others”. Today we have some sex talk!

1. What made you decide to specifically write about individuals that are associated with sexual magic practices for your book, “Sex Magicians?”

There seems to have been a kind of passing of the flame from Randolph onwards, as far as pioneers of sex magic are concerned. Likely because practitioners are extremely few in number. So there was a natural draw to the most prominent individuals, even though certain others could have been included. I tended towards diverse people, from different backgrounds, with different political views, with different objectives.

2. Considering how sex can be a taboo subject, is it hard to learn about people who have practiced sex magic?

I don’t think sex is a taboo subject anymore. You’d have to live an extremely sheltered life to be able to continue in that fallacy. What is taboo, however, is spirituality. A lot of western people are uncomfortable with admitting they have metaphysical longings…throbbings, even. I think far more people are experimenting with sex than are with metaphysics and questions of the human spirit.

3. You live in Paris. Americans tend to view France as having a more progressive attitude towards sex. Do you find that to be the case?

That’s a very difficult question. The answer could be very longwinded, and still be unsatisfactory. They are extremely different cultures. I think Americans suffer from more psychosexual trauma than the French, on the whole. However, I think the French are surprisingly conventional when it comes to sexuality – there’s a well-established code, which seems quite liberated, but there’s not much deviance from it. Also, sadly, you are much more likely to be sexually assaulted in France than in the US, which points to some deep societal problems which might not be as apparent in the US. I think the United States is a more mystical place than France, which is a country obsessed with rationality and measure. You can measure the universe, but you cannot measure your desire to explore it – and I believe Americans are more willing to make those kinds of explorations, whether through practicing sex magic or otherwise. France does have its mystical traditions, however, and when you do encounter them, they are magnificent.

4. What can we learn from studying the lives and works of the people featured in your book?

Fundamentally, they are all adventurers. These are people who fixed their lives on a goal, whether rocketry, poetry, music or whatever, and then explored the fullest extent of the tools available to them, within themselves. This led them to revelatory experiences which improved the quality of their work and gave them one of the most satisfying types of life available – that of the adventurer, and of the informed risk taker. They were not afraid of life, that is what I think they all have in common, and there’s a lot to be said for approaching life without fear.

5. “Sex Magicians” explores the lives a diverse group of people, including Jack Parsons, Aleister Crowley, Maria de Naglowska, Genesis P-Orridge, and others. For being such a diverse group, do you find that they all have things in common?

Yes, they all strove to understand themselves, to position themselves in the universe, rather than just in their immediate surroundings. They found power in themselves to do exceptional things, they are all adventurers.

6. How were you first introduced to the idea of sex being a component of magic?

My first literal understanding of it was through reading the works of Aleister Crowley. But what he spoke of correlated to ideas and experiences I’d already had, but not yet understood.

7. When we say, “sex magic”, it’s not just heterosexual intercourse, is it?

No, that would be absurd, especially in a book featuring people like Genesis, Aleister Crowley and William Burroughs. If people are looking for arbitrary moral restrictions on their bodily functions, they are welcome to browse the Koran or the Bible. There’s no need for definitions of hetero- or homosexual in sex magic, there is just sexual; all it requires is that it be fully consensual and within the bounds of the law.

8. If someone is already a magical practitioner, how would suggest they incorporate sex into their practice? (If this is a topic you think you can speak about.)

There are magical practitioners who feel they do not need to incorporate any sexual component into their practice and that is perfectly reasonable. Sexual magic is sometimes considered as being more useful to westerners than purely meditative magic – as we might call it – as our society does not easily permit a life of free contemplation for extended periods of time. Not many societies do, but until recently enough, such things were possible in places like India. Sex magic can be a kind of short cut. If someone is already interested in incorporating sex into their practice, then I would guess they had already felt drawn in that direction, and so they should just follow their intuitive guidance system. Reading the works of Peter J. Carroll would be an excellent basis of ideas, but in truth it’s about allowing yourself to go down whichever path you are being drawn down. There really aren’t any rules when it comes to exploring the inner self, or how sex can be used to do so – apart from the obvious ones I mentioned earlier.

9. What’s next? Do you have any upcoming projects you’d like to share with our readers?

My belief, which I state in the book, is that magical practice, like transcendental meditation, or anything else in the spiritual realm, is a means to an end, a way of improving what you do in life. My end is as a film maker, and I will be releasing a short film based on the experience of using a Dream Machine, as invented by Brion Gysin and Ian Sommerville – and popularized by William Burroughs, Kurt Cobain and others – in the next few months. More information will be on my Instagram page @michaelwilliamwest or my website michaelwilliamwest.com

10. Parting shot! Ask us at The Magical Buffet any one question.

What’s the greatest adventure you’ve been on from the comfort of your own bed?

Dreaming. Seriously. I have vivid, intense dreams.

About Michael William West:
Michael William West is an author and filmmaker from Paris, France. He has been a student of the occult and practitioner of left-hand traditions for almost 20 years. He writes for A Void magazine and released the film, “9 Circles: Limbo”. He lives in Paris.

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